The YouTube Formula: The Definitive Guide to YouTube Marketing [Derral Eves Interview]
YouTube can be a powerful force in digital marketing when leveraged correctly. Many businesses just use YouTube as a place to upload their videos, but when used strategically, YouTube can generate video views in the thousands (if not millions) that can lead to massive business for those that get it.
Joining me today is the person that I can honestly call the world's expert on YouTube marketing, author of The YouTube Formula, Derral Eves. Listening to this very special episode will give you all you need to start leveraging YouTube as a strategic marketing channel.
[02:17] Introduction of Podcast Guest, Derral Eves
[05:41] How Derral Got Into YouTube
[08:09] Derral's Love and Passion for Marketing
[14:06] An Example of Brand That Leveraged User Generated Content
[18:10] Doing Preparatory Things
[24:03] Paying Attention to YouTube Analytics Data
[32:46] Getting to the Tipping Point of YouTube?
[38:01] Darrel's Advice on Making Sure People Stay in Your Videos
That's how I've been able to generate over 86 billion video views on YouTube and have some of the biggest successes because we focus on the viewer and that viewers journey through the video.
I think that's what brands need to do I think we get so fixated on our product or service, that we miss how the product or service could be demonstrated to a wide general more of audience and really refined, and I've worked with so many businesses, that, that they have a great product, but they don't know how to explain it, they don't know how to get it out for the world, instead of saying, Look, you know, we have a great product, but how are we going to explain it in a way that brings value to people.
And so a lot of this stuff comes back through creativity, but I think it goes back down to that advice is just lock yourself in a room for a couple of days and really focus on how you bring value to the general audience and how do you narrow it down to your target audience? And then how do you get the target audience to engage enough that they become your army promoting your products. We need to do more preparatory things at the beginning instead of reactionary.
The more that you can resonate with your vision, mission purpose, around anything, that's where some magic can happen down the road.
But I found that it takes a good solid year of consistently posting to start seeing some momentum. If you're looking at the right type of data, if you're not looking at the right type of data, or you're not bringing value to a specific viewer, and you're all over the place, it could take a millennia before you even see any progress.
You can get very tactical with YouTube ads, and you can do it for very cheap to get into all the people that just watch the videos that you don't even have to serve as anyone else.
The YouTube Formula on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/YouTube-Formula-Algorithm-Audience-Revenue/dp/1119716020
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I had a chance to speak with the world's well might just call them the number one expert on YouTube. And I think you're really going to enjoy this next episode that is filled with a ton of actionable advice whether you want to get started on YouTube, you're already started or even if you're almost an expert I think there's going to be something for everyone here. So make sure you keep listening to this next episode of The your digital marketing coach podcast. Digital social media content influencer marketing, blogging, podcasting, blogging, tick tocking, LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, SEO, SEM, PPC, email marketing, who there's a lot to cover, whether you're a marketing professional entrepreneur, or business owner, you need someone you can rely on for expert advice. Good thing you've got Neil on your side, because Neal Schaffer is your your digital digital marketing marketing coach, helping you grow your business with digital first marketing one episode at a time. This is your digital marketing coach, and this is Neal Schaffer. Hey, everybody, Neal Schaffer, here. I am your digital marketing coach. Welcome to my podcast. If you're a new subscriber here, I just want to let you know that every week I am coming at you normally every Thursday morning when all the stars are aligned. And I alternate between interviews with handpicked experts in digital content influencers, social media marketing, the other half being solo episodes where I try to teach or preach on a topic that I have been thinking a lot about recently speaking about, or maybe even working with a client on all in hopes of helping you gain positive ROI, learn one or two things, each episode that you can leverage for your business, or even for your career. And if you've been a subscriber, thank you for continuing on the journey with me. And well this week. If you've been a subscriber, you know, I've interviewed a lot of amazing people. But I'm really genuinely excited about this one. Today, my special guest, you might have been wondering who is this YouTube expert that Neil's talking about? His name is Derral. Eve's Darrell is the founder of well, it just might be the definitive YouTube marketing conference, especially for influencers for content creators. That Conference, which maybe some of you have even been to is called Vid Summit. It's actually coming up pretty soon in Los Angeles from September 27 to 29th. And he is well, he's one of the people that has worked with Mr. Beast, he's worked with a number of people, as you'll hear in the interview, he has this back guy in the back who has indirectly influenced a lot of views, a lot of subscribers and a lot of money in the YouTube economy. He's someone that actually is hired by YouTube to evangelize YouTube. And I first reached out to him. Well, I've known about him for a long time. But I reached out to him because of the book that he wrote the YouTube formula, this book came out. Well, I think it came out earlier this year in 2022 might be wrong. But how anyone can unlock the algorithm to drive views, build an audience and grow revenue with the foreword by his friend, Mr. Beast. And it is one of these books, ladies and gentlemen, there are very few books I've read over the last 12 years that are like the definitive book on that subject. When inbound marketing came out that book, yes, that was the definitive book on that subject. I would say Joe polities books and content marketing are the same. And when it comes to YouTube, this is it. This is the book that I've been recommending to my clients to friends, if you want to figure YouTube out, read this book, everything that I've learned and I plan to implement myself, in the not so distant future about YouTube marketing is all in this book. I mean, it is just this collection of best practices. It's a collection of historical anecdotes, which makes these best practices even more powerful, and I think easier to implement. And Darrel man, he's, he's the real thing. And that's why, you know, I'm really excited. Yeah, you could probably tell him sort of like fanboying him at the moment, but I'm really excited for this interview. I won't take up any more your time. So here is my interview with Derral Eve's all about YouTube. Enjoy. You're listening to your digital marketing coach. This is Neal Schaffer. Darrell, welcome to the your digital marketing coach Podcast.
I'm excited to be here. Darrell,
I am. As I said before, I'm even more excited. I have really been loving YouTube formula, the book that you wrote, and I've, man I've recommended it So many people, it's not even funny. But let's take a step back. There's a lot of people that may not know us sometimes fine. People write books. And it's like, where? Why haven't I sort of, you know, if you're in the YouTube world, I'm sure everyone knows about you. Right? Even outside of the YouTube world, I'll ask people, have you heard of Mr. Beast? Or like, Who's he? So? Yeah, so I think that you need a little bit of introducing, you know, you wrote the book. So well, it's like, I already know your history, but I know my listeners might not. So knowing that you wrote a book about YouTube, let's get started with how you got into YouTube, because you started out like a lot of other digital marketers on website development on SEO. But then something clicked. And obviously, you went in a video?
Yeah, for me, it was how do I get customers outside of my local area, like, I worked with a lot of mom and pop shops. And so I started to use the internet to promote my agency. And our whole focus was to actually get websites to rank and then also get the phone to ring. And so we really specialized in in on that. And then it was 2005, when I was expanding my company, our company was really, really growing fast. And I'm super cheap. So I went to Craigslist for a free desk, or, you know, a desk that I could just kind of throw in there, because we're expanding. And I saw this this ad for this brand new website. And if you go and sign up and get others to join, then you can enter into to get an iPod. And it's like, when the iPod Nano came out, I was really excited about that went there. And that's when my jaw dropped. I was like, Oh, my goodness, this is the first time that I was able to see video that you can click on it that didn't buffer to the end, before it played. And for us old school people, you know, for that. And the do I saw that you can embed this on websites. So like, the thing for me was like, I have all these clients, I have 865 clients that we've done websites for they all need a video now video on their, their, their their website, and I spent the next year and a half, developing and producing videos for local businesses brick and mortar. And magically, in 2007, after Google purchase YouTube, that all those videos that we actually embedded started to rank naturally in the search engine ranking. And it was actually performing some of the websites that we put hundreds of man hours to try to get to rank and all I did is have a really good title. And that kind of led to my aha moment was oh my gosh, video is the future. I love it. And, and too, it's so easy to take people through that journey. It's even better than written for me. And so I went all in, I basically sold off my SEO business and focus 100% on video marketing at that time.
Now you have a good excuse, because 2007 This is obviously well MySpace was probably a thing, but it was really right for social media. I'm curious though a lot of people you know, see a YouTube video and they get how powerful it is. But yet, they can't do it. Did you have any training or like a video background? Or did you just say I'm going all in? And I'm going to figure it out? And you just started doing it?
Yes. So when I when I was eight, I kind of had this very epic moment of I knew what I wanted to do. And I watched a Superbowl commercial for Apple. And I'm like Ridley Scott just did this amazing. Commercial. I'm like, That's what I want to do. I want to do Superbowl commercials. And so I used to take my notebook around and see what people would like on the Superbowl ads. And And then ultimately, that became a love and passion for ads. And Wendy's came out with one of the most amazing campaigns called where's the beef that spurred kind of the creative side in the sense of you can be really funny and engaging and still get your brand across. And here I was eight, you know, just eating it up. And I'm like, That's what I want to do. And it got to a point in time in my life where just finished college I had some very, very big offers to go work with these agencies that produce these Superbowl ads. And I made a life decision that I wanted. I just barely had my firstborn baby. And I my wife and I discussed that we wanted her to grow up surrounded by family and we weren't willing to compromise. And so I kind of said, Okay, put it on the backburner. Like maybe eventually I can do it. I just started my own agency. And I think the moment for me the clarity, was seeing YouTube for what it is. And I didn't necessarily want to make Superbowl commercials Believe it or not, I found out that I wanted to make content that people would talk about around the watercooler at school, you know, in the streets or whatever. And it's just, you know, content that's impactful, whether it's funny, engaging, and my outlet became YouTube. And so I did a lot of prep work beforehand, like in production and so on and so forth. But when I did those 865 videos for my clients, I just worked with a lot of people to pull that off because I physically couldn't go to all those locations. So it was more, you know, Project man Managing all that stuff to being done and produced, and so on and so forth, and then bringing it back to upload, you know, from our main company. And so that's kind of where it all started. But my love has always been for the behind the scenes, the marketing, it's like the ideation. And and taking someone on a journey is just what I love. It's just like whether it's a journey through a video, and there's payoffs, or, you know, journey through a funnel, it gets me really, really excited.
So it sounds like I guess, rule number one, what you had going for you is that you had an analytical mindset, you already well, we all consume these TV ads in the 80s growing up, but you really had this analytical perspective on them. And therefore, once this got going, you, you know, you consumed enough of them, and then thought about them enough that you could work to recreate that I was going to ask you, and I'm sort of fast forwarding because I think a lot of businesses, as you know, make a lot of mistakes when it comes to YouTube. And I wonder if that's sort of the first one is they're not really watching, and you talked about this in the book as well about, you know, hey, analyze your competitors, they're not really consuming enough YouTube video to understand the art. And maybe they should be doing more of that, would you agree or
I would 100% agree with that. No, I think it's more so understand your audience too, because I think a lot of people have their ideal avatar of who their customer is. And in my my contention to that is, you have the data that you have, right. And sometimes when you don't have any data, you're just doing this pie in the sky, this is what my avatar looks like, this is what people want to engage with. But you really don't have a clue. And so for me, the whole reason why YouTube I get excited about it is because once I can define who the audience is, YouTube does its thing, it promotes the heck out of the videos that finds the viewer, because the whole goal of YouTube is to predict what people want to watch, and haven't seen on the platform longer. And so as I'm starting to understand viewer behavior, I can understand customer behavior too, because it's like, it's a viewer behaviors, that really general audience, and then customers are very fine tune of that audience. It just kind of drills down. But I think when businesses start is they just say, Oh, this is good video, I think it's funny, I'm gonna put it up, and they don't even really think about who's gonna be watching it. They don't go through the process or the mental exercise and say, Okay, who's gonna see this and want to share it, because that's what I try to do is I try to create a viral feedback loop where someone engages with it, it hits to the core, whether it's, you know, inspiring, educating them, or entertaining them, and they're thinking of three or four people that they have to share with. And that's all done through organic mechanisms. And that's what humans are made of, as soon as we found something that we love, we like to share what we love with people that we know that they love it. You know, it's like, Hey, if you're a Star Wars fan, and there's something that hit you, and you're like, I know, for people right now that I'm going to text because they need to see what I just saw. And that's how I've been able to generate over 86 billion video views on YouTube and have some of the biggest successes because we focus in on the viewer, and that viewers journey through the video. But also if it's multiple content, and I think brands and businesses, they don't do a very good job at that they really do themselves as a disservice try to think, oh, I can just figure it out through ads. And so they're all segmenting their ads, and they're trying to figure it all that out. And ultimately, they're getting the wrong audience, they're not getting the conversions that they need to win. All this can be done organically by taking a little bit more energy and effort and time of really saying what is our content really about? How does it bring value? And then how do we portray that in a video keep someone to retain on the end of that video? How do we you know, educate, inspire, entertain them to get them to the end, that they're willing to take action, whether it's to watch another video of yours, you know, to subscribe, or even go to your landing page or go buy a product I mean, that's the ultimate joy of what can happen when a brand really looks at capitalizing on that viewer and then taking them on a journey of giving them what they want. And let me give you the perfect example of this. I don't know if I put this in the book but I've used this example before, but it's like GoPro growth GoPro will say look, we can go out and capture everything or we can go get our product out there and create a trend where our our customers will will gladly post this is done by GoPro like this my GoPro shot this and if you go look at how GoPros sales increased it was based off of people doing amazing action sports without the brand new brand was like seeding it a little bit where they were putting money, say hey, we'll give you some money they just posted just do what you do. We want to showcase what you do, but you posted on your own channel and then we'll pull it on ours and promote it. I had a client of mine whose past sense but he did the Red Bull Rampage Red Bull Rampage. I did client work for We're Red Bull. And Kelly McGarry did a backflip over 20 Or I'm sorry, 72 foot Canyon, it was like the craziest thing ever. And he did it on a GoPro. They had like 200 million video views on it. And it was just one ad for GoPro. That was it, it was a straight edge, even though it was him doing it. It's just like, I think brands and businesses need to really look at the viewing experience. And also leverage in unique ways that I think GoPro taught us the standard of user generated content, how to, you know, leverage that, but they would have never done that if they didn't think about the end viewer of what got them the most excited if it was just more showing a product video, that would have been the most boring thing in the history of all mankind instead of something that was the epic moment of that of that, you know, adventure. And now five people are like sharing it with their friends. And they're going on by GoPros because they want to recreate that.
And Red Bulls, I was gonna say Red Bull, but they spent a lot of money to try to sponsor those activities when corporate doesn't need to spend the money. Exactly. They have the audience.
Exactly, exactly. And I think that's what brands need to do is I think we get so fixated on our product or service, that we we miss how the product or service could be demonstrated to a wide general more of an audience and really refine and, and I've worked with so many businesses, that, that they have a great product, but they don't know how to explain it, they don't know how to get it out for the world, instead of saying, Look, you know, we have a great product, but how are we going to explain it in a way that brings value to people. And with that, that's when you're actually get conversions that are coming through your website, and also your YouTube videos.
And I think it's talking about user generated content. I think a lot of companies in the early days struggled with this with sites like Instagram, how do you show content that doesn't look like an advertisement. But I think with YouTube, they still haven't gotten they've gotten better with Instagram and a lot of user generated content. But probably with YouTube, there's still a little bit behind the ball, they still haven't gotten to that point where the YouTube creators are today.
Yeah, I think there's different limitations to different platforms, right. And then two different incentives. It's like, where's the incentives that for a lot of these creators to create user generated content, one of the chapters of the book, I talked about creating a brand. And what I went in depth when I was going through my passion project was crowdfunding and bringing people together on a project that I was really passionate about, and then producing that project. So we broke the all time crowdfunding record in film and television, with a TV show called The chosen and, and we were able to do that through strategies of of using YouTube and social media to, you know, grow awareness. And our audience, we actually grew our army before, and then leveraging that army. And one of the tactics that we use is user generated content. And we do that across the board. If you go look anywhere, I mean, we'll get 10s of 1000s per week of people submitting UGC stuff on social media that is basically a billboard for our project. And it just kind of creates this feedback loop of people discovering and having conversations and going back how that all happen was, before we even and this is really important, this is probably the most important thing I could say to any business owner, or any person that that has stewardship of our brand. But even before we got started, we locked ourselves in an Airbnb for two days. And we've really tried to figure out what our brand stands for what we are, what we're not, who our viewer avatar is, who's the target avatar, we wanted to know how we bring them value, how our message could connect with their their passions, and also the things that they find important. And that's where we created the plan. And I can guarantee you, for me, especially building audiences my whole career, it was like how do I get the the the viewer to go from a discovery to a viewer to active viewer to an engaged viewer to a superfan that wants to create this, this content for us where we don't even have to create the content, they create it outside of that. And for those that think that this is impossible, you go look at Tesla Tesla spent $0 on advertising, they created a model of UGC and a lot of it actually had to do with the influencers on YouTube and, and getting it so that they got them access to cool experiences that they're able to showcase a brand and then to this is probably the biggest thing and it's like the thing that really I think that catapulted Tesla to the next realm, which is they had an affiliate program and and that affiliate program was so brilliant because these bigger YouTubers was promoting it because they wanted to get their their next Tesla for free. And I've known a couple YouTube influencers that got seven Tesla's out of just promoting Tesla products on YouTube. And so a lot of this stuff comes back through creativity, but I think it goes back down to that advice is just lock yourself in a room for a couple of days and really focusing on how you bring value to the general audience and how do you narrow it down to? And how do you narrow it down to your target audience? And then how do you get the target audience to engage enough that they become your army promoting your products. And that's something that I've done across the board with a lot of businesses, it's just we need to do more preparatory things in the beginning instead of reactionary, you know, after things happen.
And most businesses probably struggle with that, because that's not part of their DNA is it?
The it's not it, they literally Oh, I got a product, I'm gonna go ahead and promote it, instead of taking a step to say, let's really define who this is, so that we know how to communicate. And when you can communicate in a proper way that you're hitting your talking points and things that really connect with someone that's gonna get them to take action. I mean, that's, that's ultimately what happens. And so doing that, and mind you, I think a lot of that will, you'll learn and grow, as your brand grows. And as your your company grows, you'll learn more about who you are and who you're not. But your core essence shouldn't change, you know, your core essence should be what it is when you first define that. And I found that, you know, the more that you can resonate with your vision, mission purpose, around anything, that's where some magic can happen down the road. And then it's just more how do we engage people in a unique way that brings value to them? And it also, you know, highlights the brand.
But it also sounds like as part of that one of the key things you're driving for is you call it the viral feedback loop, creating the army of getting people to organically talk about your product in on YouTube. And I guess, you know, going back to the Instagram example, we talk a lot about well, how do we how do we make our restaurant more Instagrammable? How do we make the hotel more Instagrammable? How do we provide an experience, a location, a vibe, and I suppose it's taking that and really looking at your product, the audience the value, and trying to find, what can you do there that might incite someone to want to talk about and want to shoot a video about it is that one way,
without, you have to say it, it's like I went to a restaurant, they're like, Hey, if you, we'll give you a free refill. If you you know, fill out the survey and share on social media and like, that's the last thing I've ever want to hear, bring into your restaurant, I don't even want to come back. But if they actually had a really cool, like any restaurant that would create these user generated stations for people to take selfies, and it's like super epic. Did you're gonna do it. Like I was just in Brazil, in Rio, and they actually had a restaurant. That was one of the most unique restaurants everyone in my life, and the food was okay. But the experience was amazing. And I was I was posting the heck out of everything. And what did I do, I tagged where I was at, because it was that cool. And so mention this, Neil, going into the bathroom, and it was coffee beans on the floor. So you're like literally walking on coffee beans. I mean, that's how epic it was. I was like selfie and all over the place there. But I think it's just more create that experience that would get people to naturally want to do something. And that's when you win, because you don't ever have to ask them. You never have to even promote it. They'll promote it for you if they have an amazing experience, and then also the opportunity to do those cool things.
So I guess success on YouTube, we start with that whole avatar, audience persona, customer experience. I know, after reading your book, that you're a real geek about data as well. And so, and I think that the other part is probably another mistake that companies making. I mean, that's a huge one right there. And we can all learn a lot from that. But the other one is using the data that YouTube provides you. So I guess in a website, there's a concept that people stay on for how many minutes? How many bounce, we might get like a heat map software to sort of see where people are going. But what YouTube provide you is eons beyond any of that in terms of the depth of things you can understand from the video. So I was wondering if you can sort of jump through a few things that you think companies miss out on, when they don't pay close attention to that YouTube Analytics data that's provided?
Yeah, so early on in my career, I did search engine optimization. And that just does not work on YouTube. Like, let's just make that clear, right out of the gate. we're optimizing for humans, because the AI is optimized for humans. So like we see what humans do on the platform, YouTube's going to automatically promote those things for the right viewer at the right time. Because that's the goal of trying to predict what the viewer wants to watch and keep them on the platform longer. That's their two goals that they have. And if they stay on the platform longer, they make more money. So ultimately, they're not going to change from that. Because if the viewers don't want to watch it, then they go to another platform that that can anticipate them. So YouTube's really developed that. And so when I look at where the ideas should come from, and what you should focus in on, it's all about the click first. So the idea how do you present the idea in a thumbnail that is simple to understand, and then how do you reinforce it with a title that is click worthy. And what I mean by click worthy. I think a lot of people that do blogs are really good at grabbing attention, attention titles, that's the same type of titles that you need to do maybe not clickbait either you need to deliver on the promise of the title and thumbnail, but do it in a way where you're you're getting curiosity, like that curiosity factor is is key. And then to that, we'll pull them in to the first part of the video. And then outside of that, I would just say, really, really focus in on the first minute, I would just be cutting everything out no branding, no nothing, I just get right to exactly what you're trying to deliver from the title and thumbnail. And then and then as you get really good at that it's just more how do you how do you see that natural retention and where where is the disconnect, and it's generally the disconnect is that they're, they don't really understand the value, or they have a really cute thing that should be in a video, but they're not willing to kill it, because it would lose retention. And like, for me, I'm like, You're gonna kill your babies. It's like, even if it's the most amazing thing, if it distracts from that viewing pattern, that viewing journey, it needs to go I really don't care if you take it, put it on tick tock, good, do it. Like I really care. I don't care about that. But for that moment, that experience, you don't want to interrupt it, you just want to pull them in deeper. Because once that happens, and they do what we call the binge effect, where they go from one video to the next, and oh my gosh, amazing content. YouTube says, Oh, here's some characteristics of this viewer that are similar to these viewers over here. Let's go ahead and head over there and and give them the opportunity to click. So that's kind of where I look at where brands need to focus. Now, let me give you another example. This is probably the most powerful example that I could give you. But people don't like they don't want TV. They want something that YouTube is and that's where your comments of hey, maybe they may be consumer. So YouTube first so they understand how to create content. Let me give you a perfect example, this gentleman that I met, who I am now coaching, has been in the info product business for quite some time. And he's built an empire, you know, eight, nine figures, you know, really done an amazing job. And his idea was, Oh, I just needed to repurpose this content and put it onto YouTube. And it will do magically well 2000 subscribers later, after a couple years just just couldn't hit it. It just just didn't work. Right. And so he met me where I was doing a keynote and, and then he's like, Hey, teach me and I says I don't know. But we really hit it off. And this is okay. So we went in, and they submitted their first videos, and I'm like, this is not going to cut it because I go I've seen you on stage and in front of the video. You're not even the same person. You're magnetic onstage you walk on the stage, you own that room. I don't see that on the video. And he goes, Well, I know it's kind of weird is this, okay? Here's the new rule. You either have to be in, like you need to record in zoom. But you can record with a different camera. But I want you to have a live audience, or you need to start live streaming. And I go you are good at manipulating the message based on feedback. And you need that feedback. Because if you don't, your content looks like this. So he went ahead and did we created a small little plan. In less than 30 days, he went from 2000 subscribers to over 100,000 subscribers and $0 in advertising $0 in his list, because I won't let him promote with his list. I won't let him promote with advertising. Because his advertising, he doesn't know who the viewer is, YouTube does. And once we able to hit it, I mean, in one day he got I think the highest he ever got was like 12,000 subscribers in a day, you know, and it was just like hitting, hitting, hitting. And it wasn't just one video. And he's just escalated from there. And the crazy thing about it now I think this is where I want everyone to listen. In 30 days, he got about 2.5 million views. decent amount of views. I mean, it's nothing that I'm like, oh, yeah, that's amazing. But you know, over the course of time, that was a pretty amazing feat. He got $52,000 that YouTube paid him because there was ads before it so he actually had all the money for his team, and then some for his golfing and all the other stuff that he does just based off of creating content. And he'll be he'll be at a pace that this time next year, it'll be a million plus subscribers easy. Because YouTube's figured him out. And YouTube is going and finding the people that resonate with him. And they're coming on. They're clicking on it because it resonates with them. So that title and thumbnail and they're staying on longer. Watch some of his watch times like 22 minutes is the average. So
So I don't think that case study made your book so let's let's break that down a little bit more. Were you recording just brand new videos and pumping them out daily where you optimizing, you know thumbnails, and tighter description from past videos. What were the different things that went into what you achieved?
Yeah. So it was he wasn't authentic of who he he is, right. And so it was there's a sense of clinginess there's a sense of awkwardness. They were trying to repurpose content on a platform that it wasn't meant for. Right? That was their strategy. coming with me, I'm like, No, you're gonna learn YouTube the right way. And I want you to really think about the viewer. So we discussed who the viewer is, and what would the viewer find valuable? Well, we made a list of all the videos that that the ideas that the viewer would find valuable, well, those are topics for videos or live streams. And I says, if you're gonna record anything, you actually have to have a live audience because you don't do a very good job, you actually suck at doing it without a live audience, because you need that feedback. And so it was getting him in an atmosphere that made him the most authentic, the made it the most him and, and then it was just small little tweaks in the sense of really not trying to clewd the viewership with his other lists and some other ways to, to promote and it was just more or less just find value. And once they literally implemented it, it was a week later, that's when the massive growth started to occur. And it was a compounding effect, because what happened was someone came in through a title and thumbnail that they found valuable. And then they watched the content, and then they binge watch this stuff. And so YouTube says, Oh, my gosh, let's go find more people. And people continue to do it. And so YouTube will always kind of push out from there. And so he's built a career on knowing what's valuable, he just didn't do a very good job of understanding the platform, understanding the viewer, and how to communicate with the viewer in an authentic way, that would also trigger the algorithm.
So I think that there's an analogy, well, somewhat of analogy with SEO, not that we're gonna play SEO to YouTube. But I do think there's a point where if you create enough content, that's good content around a certain subject, at a certain point, search engines see you as being somewhat of an authority on that subject. And soon your content then starts to rank, and you start to see the traffic with YouTube. And that's not the first time I've heard of, and maybe in your book, but but from others as well, there seems to be this tipping point, that, you know, when Google figures you out, you get the authority, slowly, your traffic goes up, assuming you're still creating great content, everything else. But with YouTube, it's almost as if more immediate, the minute they figure you out, and they can attract that viewer or introduce you to the viewer and everything clicks, then organically that growth just sort of hits,
as long as you're being consistent in bringing value to that specific type of viewer, right?
is just like you get derailed. But yeah,
I'm curious, based on your experience, is there a certain volume, you hear about, oh, you know, my first 100 videos, sock is this, and we don't want people to think, oh, I can do this, you know, today, and I'm going to get that tomorrow, because it doesn't work that way, obviously, is there's like a volume of consistency of number of videos of time that you see like just to manage everyone's expectations that you see a bare minimum of in order to get to that tipping point on YouTube. So
it depends on the experience that they have with YouTube. So let me give you an idea. So I have a student that started a second channel posted one video had 1.5 million views on that first video, got 80,000 subscribers from it without even promoting it from his previous channel or anything, he just understood what good content is. And as soon as YouTube figured him out, within about 21 days, he was able to, you know, get over 200,000 subscribers on a brand new channel, it says like you can, you can have that happen really fast if you know how to bring value to a specific audience and then getting them to watch multiple pieces of content. And so that can happen really quickly. But generally with a just someone that's starting out fresh, I would strongly urge everyone encourage them to read my book. I know Neil promoted a little bit. But the whole reason why I wrote the book was to give people the preparatory things that they need to think about before they pick up the camera. I think that there's a lot of wasted time, energy and effort when you just shoot and don't think about how are we going to do this and I wanted it to showcase of what YouTube really cares for and then to what they find valuable. And so that's why I wrote the book. And and it can be helpful. So I would say definitely go through the book and then really do the exercises. There's there's exercises in that. And if you do it, it will give you a lot more clarity. After that. It's just more with the mindset of you're not failing, you're just you've learned a little bit more than you knew the last video and I've seen it happen very, very quickly. For creators. I've seen it happen very slow for others, but I think the the essence would be get them to click get that first minute tightened up as much as you can. So you don't just have that hockey stick of death or the Come on and just bounce off, right we want, we want them to experience that. And if you get past that first minute, then work with two, and then two, three, and it's just more being patient enough. But I found that it takes a good solid year of consistently posting to start seeing some momentum. If you're looking at the right type of data, if you're not looking at the right type of data, or you're not bringing value to a specific viewer, and you're all over the place, it could take a millennia before you even see any any progress.
Right. But that that potential for that really quick, you know, Boost, which you probably will never see from an SEO perspective is possible on YouTube. And I would argue, and I wanted to get your thoughts. You know, a lot of when you look at, you know, social media, it's supply and demand. And oh, there's you know, tick tock, there's, there's just not enough, you know, tick tock videos out there, and therefore every video as a chance of getting a lot. Would you agree that YouTube still has a supply? Because there's just so much demand? And so little supply? And that's what gives the opportunity for any company, any person to be able to tap into that? Should they be following all the rules that you're talking about?
Yeah, I think it's just understanding that you're not doing the heavy lifting that YouTube is, and YouTube will find your audience if it's there. And I found that some people try to get a really, really narrow audience. And the, the idea would be, let's take a couple steps back and look for a little bit broader audience. So I have a student of mine, I mean, she's in her 70s. And she literally loves you too. And she would do crocheting and knitting and all this other stuff. And the moment that she decided, you know, what, I really like fashion, and I want to help people that are my age feel younger, and whatever. And right out of the gate, I mean, she was filling a need, that is underserved, and and isn't oversaturated. And she got over 200 200,000 people subscribers in less than six months. Because Youtube figured it out and figured out oh, here's here's some great content that's out there. And then and then to like, I haven't found a vertical that it's oversaturated it good content is good content. When you find value, like YouTube will find the viewer for that value. You just have to give them the signals to make sure it's good content. And I let trust me I discover everyday I've been on YouTube since 2005. And every day I discover a new vertical, a new thing that has billions of views every day. And I'm like, How is this even possible? Like I like I pride myself of knowing YouTube, right? How's this possible that barely discovering people that have been on the platform for 10 years, or two years or six months that is in a vertical I didn't even know existed?
That's amazing. I think one of the counterintuitive things that people discover, and you wrote about it and others have talked about it is the idea is that most marketers want to take people off YouTube, they see it as an extension of social media. We want to get them interested and get them to click back to our website. But in order to do well on YouTube, you want people to stay on YouTube, because that's what YouTube wants. So how I guess what is your recommendation for businesses where they need to meet these KPIs and ROI, what have you, but yet, they have to do the opposite. And make sure people stay on YouTube. What is your advice for them?
Yeah, so very easy. You need to create a viewers journey where they can watch multiple videos before they jump off. And I just want to make it super clear. I'm not anti ad by no means am I anti ad, I think ads have a very powerful way to connect. But never in a million years, would I ever run ads on my own channel ever, ever in the history of all mankind. Okay, now what you do though, is you created another YouTube channel, that's your ad channel, and you're able to tie the current channel into your AdWords account. And you can take all the data that's there and serve as the people that are watching these videos and you create, you know, infinite segmentations on it. What I would love is for, for offers to come and you're able to understand who's watching what, and you get very specific on the ads of what they're being seen. So you can do custom combinations in ads where they can watch a series of videos. And if they don't take action, if they don't subscribe or they don't go to the homepage or whatever of your landing page, then show them an ad to take them on the journey. Or if they you get them to a landing page where they've consumed another video. And the video is like 30 minutes long. If they got to the very end or a specific period like 75% into it. You could show them that ad if they didn't convert and I think you're going to spend less money with a better audience than then trying to guess who your audience is and competing with all the competition because it's like you're only going off with the views and then it's your job to get a very big organic viewership happening. And then taking that remarketing data and then just blasting it out and it's just it's an easy slam dunk when it comes to growing and it's very complimentary where you have your organic side that is complemented with a really good solid remarketing strategy as well.
Got yourself some Are how people retargeting Facebook ads, the ROI of building up that huge organic audience is, it's it's more data to be able to allow you to do better retargeting on YouTube.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the only difference between Facebook ads and YouTube ads is Facebook is a feed driven system. And it's just like, I'm not a big fan of feed driven systems, because you have to always just pound and you're putting it out and a lot more impressions, you can get very tactical with YouTube ads, and you can do it for very, very cheap to get into all the people that just watch the videos that you don't even have to serve as anyone else. Just people watch the videos. And I've seen people make a, you know, eight figures pretty easy in a year just targeting their organic base, because they know love and trust them organically. And when there's an offer that comes in at the right time. They're taking action on that.
Awesome, awesome advice. So we're getting near the end, we've covered a lot and man, I feel like we could go on for hours. But I want to be respectful of your time. I think we can't in you know, as we're in the second half of 2022. We can't talk about YouTube without talking about number one YouTube shorts. And number two tick tock. Yeah, so at the recent VidCon unfortunately, I was not there, but it seemed like YouTube shorts was the rage. number of people that have already been really successful. I guess number one, how do you see YouTube shorts as part of this entire YouTube journey that you want to take your customers on? And then number two, how do you juxtapose or align that with what you see going on with Tik Tok?
Yeah, so let me let me take a step back I you know, every once in a while, people like you and I, we get asked and asked predictions for the coming years and so on. And I said the number one app of all time will be tic tock. And it wasn't because I did a console for tic tock and you know, I saw their algorithm and stuff from there. Because when I saw that, that kind of blew me away of how really good at finding and understanding the viewer was, it's like, by far the best AI I've ever seen. It's scary, crazy. But what happened is, it's the programming experience of the viewer. So the programming experience the viewer is really quick self gratification, and and the way in the rhythms is gamified, too. And it's primal connection with viewers that they just they get addicted very, very quickly. And it's quick payoffs. Now, keeping in mind, I just want everyone to understand what tic tock is, and YouTube short is as of this moment, and who it resonates. Now, it resonates across the board with different demographics for different things, right. But the biggest thing for Gen Z, and millennials is memes. They are just basically memes. They live and communicate through memes. And when there's something that connects with them, they're gonna go and share. And that's where it's at. So it's like creating video memes that connect to an audience can be very, very effective. doing informational things, as Oh, you want to learn that? Well, that's more for Gen Xers and boomers that are on the list, they like, no one, no one in the right mind cares in Gen Z, and millennials about teaching me something in 30 seconds to a minute, you know, entertain me, make me do shock and awe, give me some type of reaction. And it has to be visceral reaction, it has to be something, you know, that causes that adrenaline to hit or whatever is more euphoric. And you know, and they're either engaging that way. But the the other thing would be, and this is a word of warning, is to create content like that, you have to consistently put it out because it's a feed driven system. And it's based off of the freshness factor. And it's on so many different levels. And so it's hard to it's easy to create content for, but it's hard to really capitalize on as a brand. So it's that video memes that is where you're able to really engage the viewer. And then to on the brand side, if you're speaking in that audience, or in that way, you got to look at the audience that you're doing. Now for YouTube shorts. It's the same thing. YouTube is looking for entertainment. And it's that same visceral connection that's happening in a very quick moment. Something that can connect, I do believe that you need to have a short strategy, I do believe that you could take the same short put it in IG you can put it in Tik Tok. And it'll work the same way because everyone's trying to go after that type of experience. But I want you to really comprehend the viewing experience because that's where, you know, I come in the viewing experience is this, I don't get to choose what I see. Right? And so microseconds, I gotta grab someone's attention. You know, I have to be able to pull them in. And so that's where you got to focus in on and then the swipe up, it's just like, you know, know that it's a very fast thing. They don't choose you and they can engage with you. So it's kind of hard to do a lot of the stuff that you want to do like brand building or whatever. But you can do it in a very good content strategy way where people can really, really share. So let me just give you an example of it. One of the most viral video that occurred was a fourth of July celebration that uplifted the brand because they have a security camera. Simply Safe, okay. And it showed a family letting off fireworks that hit into their other fireworks that literally just blew up everything. It was just like all over the board, they had over a billion video views in two days. And everyone knew about the brand because of the watermark, on the security camera of everything is going on. And you saw the brand lift it people were very curious about it. Right? It wasn't by the brand. But it was done in that same micro video content, where people were literally using it, they're reacting to it. They're making fun of it, they brought it as their own meme, it was pretty, pretty engaging. So yes, I do believe that you need to have a very, very strategic way for this micro content when it comes to vertical content. But you need to understand that it's completely type different type of viewer and viewing experience, you can't just blanket across the board of what your current strategy is.
So I'm sure you get asked this a lot. Do you create a new channel for your shorts? Will if you don't get good engagement with your shorts? Will it bring down your whole channel? Or what's how do you how do you integrate it with what you're already doing on YouTube?
Yes, so I have a love hate relationship with YouTube and Google, I actually still consult for YouTube and Google, and they pay me money for it. So they've heard me say this before, there's no NDA, even I worked with the shorts team in the beginning to get it rolling. But the thing is, is YouTube's trying to get as many viewers to see the content as possible. So for right now, when you release a short form video, it puts it in and notifies your subscribers puts it on the homepage because of the Scripture feed. And a lot of people are like, Why am I watching this 15 second video when it was like, you know, 40 minute content that I'm used to. And there's that disconnect and what why they're doing it is trying to funnel people into the short feed. And then they're they're in it, the moment that they put a button that says hey, only show this in the short feed. And and this is the type of content that it is, then I'll put it on the main channel, and I won't create it another channel I have created. But 90% of the time, I'll do a separate channel for it. But there are cases that it does warrant that the type of content that they're creating that short form works. And it's complimentary to their growth. And so I have to do it by a case by case basis. But until they put that button there, I can't just blatantly say, oh, yeah, just use your same YouTube channel. even know that they are. This is notorious YouTube, is they'll have a new feature. They're really excited about it. And they want everybody to do it. But no one knows what it does to your channel. So it's like, be cautious, a little bit, you know, get the data. And I have a ton of data on this in the sense that it is still like I'd rather have YouTube recommend a 15 minute video than a 15 second video on the homepage, that viewing experience is really important to me.
Gotcha. So it sounds like we're still very early days, when it comes to YouTube shorts. Could be extremely powerful. But obviously there's a lot of strategy, a lot of thought that needs to go into creating something that people would actually consume.
Yeah, and not all the views the same, like getting a million views on a short, I would rather have 10,000 views on a long video. Yeah. Because it's just like, you know that engagement is so amazing. But getting a million views on shore. It's really easy.
And I'm just curious, since you're an expert on this, what do you think the definition that a tick tock or an Instagram or YouTube shorts has on when they say it's a view? Is it one second? Is it not
even a second? As soon as it hits? It's like as soon as it hits? It's a view.
So don't get too excited about those views? Yeah. Yeah.
Like on on a regular YouTube videos, 30 seconds, but it's like this one is like literally just as soon as it hits and they will. There'll be more liberal on that side. On Hey, we got all these views. We just had 2 billion views or 2 billion users on on YouTube shorts. I honestly, I don't care as is like, I want people to get to the end. And yeah, you know, you'll get 100% retention, but you're gonna need like 180% retention, you got to get them to watch again, you know, and to really trigger that algorithm. So there's a whole set of dynamics that are there. I would just say any brand, just let let anyone that just graduated high school, run your short strategy or tic toc strategy and let them go loose. Like oh, like literally let them do it. They understand it. It's easy for them to do it. That's what I would do. I wouldn't try to figure it out myself and just go for it. Teach me after that. So
Amen. I have two high schoolers and I see them on all that and yeah, it's a whole different dynamic. My daughter will show me she's interning Hey, check out this video. We did this tic tock Oh, this is the latest trend you may not have heard of it but but they know it and the viewers that content know it but we don't know it cuz we're not part of that world. So definitely, it's a holdover World, Darrel, you know, there was so much I had a bunch of questions I'd written down. And when asked you, we only got through half of which is cool. Like I said, I want to be conscious of your time, we didn't even get a chance to talk about Seinfeld. And the example you use which I reread like a few times just to absorb it. But you know, we talked a lot, is there any? Is there any burning thing that you wanted to bring up that you think any burning piece of advice that you think we didn't cover, that our listeners should know, just as a way to conclude our interview,
I believe if you're not using video, you're gonna fall behind. Like, I think that is the form, I believe it's the future, I love to see where a brand can go when they utilize video properly. And so if you haven't yet started, you know, we have these amazing capture devices, phone, that that is off the charts, you know, and to get good audio into this, it's just like 40 bucks, it's like nothing too crazy. You can get started down, it doesn't take much, you just need to be able to think, how do you bring value? And how do you position it in a way, my last thought is this, everyone thinks they need to be like Mr. Beast, or like some, you know, flashy creator, to get views. And I have a client, a student of mine, who says, I need six minute videos, I'm like, No, you don't need six minute videos. And look at the value. And I was looking at the value, he do these 45 minute lectures on health. And he really go micro on it, he go way down into this. And he gets some of the best rates and like 76% retention, I says you just need more than that. And he grew from about 100,000. He's now 2.8 million subscribers on YouTube, totally transformed his life has products coming out that his his subscribers want. And it's totally amazing. But it's all about understanding your your audience bringing value to them, and giving them what they want. Because when you go look at his hair, like, this is popular on YouTube, but it is for someone, it is for someone and not all of us consume the same way. So be very intentional of your audience and understand them to the core that you can bring that value. And that's how you'll actually grow on YouTube.
Awesome. Darrell, thank you so much. Obviously, people should run to Amazon, or wherever they buy books and by the YouTube formula, where else can and should they connect with you
Derral Eve's dot com Twitter wherever like, it's all socials, my name. And you can see how to spell it when you go buy my book.
Awesome. Dale, thank you so much, you know, wish you the best success. It really is. And I just want to say this publicly, but because people know I'm an author, as well. And I read a lot of books on digital social media marketing. But if there's one book that really defines a social network definitively, both in the techniques and the strategies, but also just the mindset, and the history and intellectual perspective on the why and the how behind it. It's the YouTube formulas are really just fantastic job in the book, and just wish you the best of success with it. Thank you so much. I hope you agree that Darrell is the man. He was very gracious with his time we went way over the original time that I thought the interview would take up he died just kept on thinking of question after question to ask him, you know, whenever I think of questions to ask people, I'm trying to think of you the listener, what would you ask him if you had the chance to? So hey, if there's a topic, I mean, like I said, this is going to become the definitive YouTube marketing episode for this your digital marketing coach podcast. But if there's similar people or similar topics that you would like definitive answers on, reach out to me, let me know you can email me Neal at Neal schaffer.com. That's probably going to be the easiest thing. But you can go to my website, Neal schaffer.com, there's a Contact button in the menu, or you can just hit me up on any of the social media channels. Obviously, I am the real Neil that's ne al sch FF er, and hey, when this episode publishes, I will actually be in Dallas, Texas, for Podcast Movement. This is gonna be my second time attending the conference. Two years ago, I went when it was in Nashville, and it was my first, you know, conference during COVID. It was amazing. And I'm looking forward to meeting other podcasters and learning more myself about this incredible medium, which we call podcasting. So if any of you plan to be there, please let me know. Like I said, this is going to be real time. So you're gonna have to let me know or, Hey, if you're in Dallas, let me know we'd love to meet up for sushi or beer or a cup of coffee or just to say hi, so hey, that's it for another episode of The your digital marketing coach podcast. This is your digital marketing coach Neal Schaffer reminding you to keep your eye on the goal. And we will see you next week. Bye. Bye, everybody. You've been listening to your digital marketing coach, questions, comments, requests, links, go to podcast dot Neal schaffer.com. Get the show notes to this and 200 plus podcast episodes, and Neal schaffer.com to tap into the 400 Plus blog post that Neil has published to support you more business. While you're there, check out Neil's Digital First group coaching membership community if you or your business needs a little helping hand, see you next time on your digital marketing coach.